Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

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Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

r_squires
I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost.  It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.

As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no longer be used by many of these big organisations.

Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?

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RE: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Simoneau, Roger
I'm in Canada: we had the same thing.  Someone wanted to cut software costs so they dropped Toad and have us using SQL Dev.  Plenty of the developers have identified how that's hurt their productivity in one form or another but the business minds just don't want to accept it.

And you're right it's pretty difficult to quantify.  How do you show a business mind whose eyes start to glaze over at the first hint of technical explanation that project X is equal to project Y and project Y only took longer to develop because of the toolset?  Worse: how do you eliminate all the other factors involved - such as the User Specs that need clarified - so you can do that?

To myself: it's an impossible uphill battle unless your management is technically experienced.

Point being: It's not just an Australian business mindset.  It's a blind spot I'd expect to find in non-technical managers anywhere in the world.  And I mean non-technical in the sense that they have no personal direct tech experience as developers.  A manager who has been managing a tech team for years without understanding the tech fits into that non-tech description.

Roger A. Simoneau
Systems Analyst
Alberta Blue Cross
(780) 498-8837

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of r_squires
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia



I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost. It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.

As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no longer be used by many of these big organisations.

Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?


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RE: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

mgainty

this summer i watched the president of brazil touring the corn-leaf processing plants which make ethanol

his first question was
1)how does this work

his second question was
2)will people buy  this product

his third question was
3)what do you need from me to bring this low cost energy alternative to my people

you'll notice not once did he mention how are we going to tax this  product
Martin
______________________________________________
Lead...follow..or get out of my way..Author anonymous

To: [hidden email]
From: [hidden email]
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:08:32 -0600
Subject: RE: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia
















 



 


   
     
     
     



I'm in Canada: we had the same thing.  Someone wanted to cut software costs so they dropped Toad and have us using SQL Dev.  Plenty of the developers have identified
 how that's hurt their productivity in one form or another but the business minds just don't want to accept it.
 
And you're right it's pretty difficult to quantify.  How do you show a business mind whose eyes start to glaze over at the first hint of technical explanation that project
 X is equal to project Y and project Y only took longer to develop because of the toolset?  Worse: how do you eliminate all the other factors involved – such as the User Specs that need clarified - so you can do that?
 
To myself: it's an impossible uphill battle unless your management is technically experienced.
 
Point being: It's not just an Australian business mindset.  It's a blind spot I'd expect to find in non-technical managers anywhere in the world.  And I mean non-technical
 in the sense that they have no personal direct tech experience as developers.  A manager who has been managing a tech team for years without understanding the tech fits into that non-tech description.
 

Roger A. Simoneau
Systems Analyst
Alberta Blue Cross
(780) 498-8837

 


From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of r_squires

Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:02 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia


 
 




I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.



Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost. It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that
 make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.



As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no
 longer be used by many of these big organisations.



Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?








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Re: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

raypaschke
In reply to this post by r_squires



Try this.

Take away everyone's MS Word and Access and Excel.  Give them Notepad, SQL*Plus and Calculator.

The 'cost' of the MS Office applications is more than the 'free' applications that are provided with the Window's OS.  Ask the users to 'justify the cost'.

We have faced the same questions, as will any good business.  (Remember, the object of 'business' is to make money; not spend it.)  But at some point convenience and productivity outweighs the cost of software licensing.

I am fortunate in that my management (at all levels, in and outside IT) understands and appreciates the advantages presented by 'technology' in its many forms.  It is not frivolous but it does consider well-reasoned arguments as to why money should be spent.

--- In [hidden email], "r_squires" <r_squires@...> wrote:
>
> I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.
>
> Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost.  It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.
>
> As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no longer be used by many of these big organisations.
>
> Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?
>


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Re: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Rich Jesse-2
In reply to this post by r_squires
> I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia
> now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

I like to put the costs (tangible or not) in terms that they can understand.
 My Toad license costs 25% less than the service for the horrible PoS of a
Blackberry I was issued.  So I gave 'em back my phone, went BYOD and saved
'em the costs.  Not that I was in any danger of losing Toad, but...

Of course this situation is likely to be unique to me as I'm a DBA, I'm the
only DBA, I'm on-call 24x7x365, I was granted Special Dispensation for the
BYOD phone, and 95% of my cell minutes were talking to my (lovely) Wife
anyway.  My point is that your Toad [groan, here it comes] ROI [hate that]
is going to vary between companies.  Damagement wants proof, so prove it.
Make the case (I like using lots of pretty graphs and buzzwords) and present
it.

I know it sucks.  It's like having to prove you're innocent instead of Them
having to prove your guilt, and that burns me.

I wonder if they've fixed the issue in S-Dev where saving grid results
caused a rerun of the query...

GL!

Rich -- [TeamT]

Disclaimer: Herman Melville had one righteous beard.

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RE: Re: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Simoneau, Roger
In reply to this post by raypaschke
>> Take away everyone's MS Word and Access and Excel. Give them Notepad, SQL*Plus and Calculator.

I like that solution.  Perhaps if I'm ever in management - I'll use that solution myself :)

Roger A. Simoneau
Systems Analyst
Alberta Blue Cross
(780) 498-8837

________________________________
This communication, including any attached documentation, is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential, personal and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized disclosure, copying, or taking action on the contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact us immediately so we may correct our records. Please then delete or destroy the original transmission and any subsequent reply.
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RE: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Tryon, Christopher S
In reply to this post by r_squires
I have said many times before on this forum, the cost is not just the $ for the product, but the experience you have gained over the years with the tool. Especially on tasks that don't occur often. Yes, you could probably write select... in 30 seconds on S-Dev, but with that argument, use sql*plus.

Training/Experience...10 years using the #1 tool on the market ($50k/year) is about $500,000. So the argument is to throw away that kind of investment? You tell me who's asking the stupid questions. This is the same reason that iPhone users won't go to Android. They don't want to learn a new system. When critical systems are down is not the time to find out if the new free tool worked the same way.

Think of it this way...if my billing rate is $150 USD, just a day's worth of lost productivity pays for Toad. That day won't come in the first week, but over a period of time (and is hard to quantify, just like productivity for developers).

And another way...let's get a committee together to evaluate other tools. 3-4 people, probably 3-4 hours each. Using the same rate, you quickly burn through any potential savings.

The argument I am using, is that anything that costs about a day's billing is more expensive to talk about it rather than just buying it. While at work, you are constantly burning through money as most devs aren't pro bono.

None of these points talk about any specific features of product X. Feel free to replace "Toad" with "hammer", "screwdriver", "vi", "emacs", etc. We all have favorites of those as well.

It does make sense for everyone in an office to be on the same tool (use what your friends use). We are a mixed office with some on S-Dev, some on PL/SQL Developer,  and <b>most</b> on Toad.

Chris

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of r_squires
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:02 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia



I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost. It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.

As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no longer be used by many of these big organisations.

Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?


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Re: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Yong Zhang-9
Most of the cases are that picking a tool is not purely based on what it can do/how much it costs, rather than based on politics, which is sad for some corporates. In my previous company, there were a lot of software/tools, only used by one or two persons, but nobody talked about it. Luckily, nobody challenged the validity of using TOAD in all companies I have been working with.

 

________________________________
 From: "Tryon, Christopher S" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia
   
 
   
 
I have said many times before on this forum, the cost is not just the $ for the product, but the experience you have gained over the years with the tool. Especially on tasks that don’t occur often. Yes, you could probably write select… in 30 seconds on S-Dev, but with that argument, use sql*plus.
 
Training/Experience…10 years using the #1 tool on the market ($50k/year) is about $500,000. So the argument is to throw away that kind of investment? You tell me who’s asking the stupid questions. This is the same reason that iPhone users won’t go to Android. They don’t want to learn a new system. When critical systems are down is not the time to find out if the new free tool worked the same way.
 
Think of it this way…if my billing rate is $150 USD, just a day’s worth of lost productivity pays for Toad. That day won’t come in the first week, but over a period of time (and is hard to quantify, just like productivity for developers).
 
And another way…let’s get a committee together to evaluate other tools. 3-4 people, probably 3-4 hours each. Using the same rate, you quickly burn through any potential savings.
 
The argument I am using, is that anything that costs about a day’s billing is more expensive to talk about it rather than just buying it. While at work, you are constantly burning through money as most devs aren’t pro bono.
 
None of these points talk about any specific features of product X. Feel free to replace “Toad” with “hammer”, “screwdriver”, “vi”, “emacs”, etc. We all have favorites of those as well.
 
It does make sense for everyone in an office to be on the same tool (use what your friends use). We are a mixed office with some on S-Dev, some on PL/SQL Developer,  and <b>most</b> on Toad.
 
Chris
 
From:[hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of r_squires
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:02 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia
 
 
I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

Its cost is always the main factor with management seeing 10s thousands of dollars in cost annually and hearing about Oracle's free SQL Developer and asking us to justify the cost. It's incredibly hard to quantify all of the little things TOAD provides that make it the best tool for the job, its just a few dollars a day but that's not how management see it.

As a big TOAD advocate I always get involved in the discussions around cost and its usefulness as a tool but as more and more people start to use SQL Developer and fewer of us TOAD users remain I suspect that probably in the next couple of years TOAD will no longer be used by many of these big organisations.

Is this just an Aussie thing or are other organisations looking at costs and paring back their use of TOAD?

______________________________________________________________________
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For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ Attention: This e-mail and any files transmitted with it from Hatch Mott MacDonald are confidential and intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify the sender. ______________________________________________________________________    
         
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Re: Re: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Joseph Charpak-4
In reply to this post by raypaschke
On 10/18/2012 12:32 PM, raypaschke wrote:

>
>
>
> Try this.
>
> Take away everyone's MS Word and Access and Excel. Give them Notepad,
> SQL*Plus and Calculator.
>
> The 'cost' of the MS Office applications is more than the 'free'
> applications that are provided with the Window's OS. Ask the users to
> 'justify the cost'.
>
> We have faced the same questions, as will any good business.
> (Remember, the object of 'business' is to make money; not spend it.)
> But at some point convenience and productivity outweighs the cost of
> software licensing.
>
Good concept, but not a true comparison. toad->sql dev is more like
taking away word and excel and replacing them with abiword (a free open
source cross platform word processing program whose compatibility with
MS Word is 'meh' at best) and gnumeric (a similar meh spreadsheet
program). Can you get the job done with those tools yes. Is it working
in the stone ages...no. Will there be rough spots where the tool doesn't
work as well as toad yes. Is it worth the cost savings...you decide.

What we really need is a toad equivalent to LibreOffice.

Please note, I love toad and would not volunteer to give it up for sql
dev. But sql dev is not sql plus+notepad.

Joseph Charpak
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RE: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Donna Buskirk
In reply to this post by Rich Jesse-2
Anyone want to share their justification/proof presentation on the list?
We can call it "Best Practices for Educating CFOs/CIOs on Toad's Real Value."
:)



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rich Jesse
Sent: October 18, 2012 12:51 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

> I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia
> now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

I like to put the costs (tangible or not) in terms that they can understand.
 My Toad license costs 25% less than the service for the horrible PoS of a
Blackberry I was issued.  So I gave 'em back my phone, went BYOD and saved
'em the costs.  Not that I was in any danger of losing Toad, but...

Of course this situation is likely to be unique to me as I'm a DBA, I'm the
only DBA, I'm on-call 24x7x365, I was granted Special Dispensation for the
BYOD phone, and 95% of my cell minutes were talking to my (lovely) Wife
anyway.  My point is that your Toad [groan, here it comes] ROI [hate that]
is going to vary between companies.  Damagement wants proof, so prove it.
Make the case (I like using lots of pretty graphs and buzzwords) and present
it.

I know it sucks.  It's like having to prove you're innocent instead of Them
having to prove your guilt, and that burns me.

I wonder if they've fixed the issue in S-Dev where saving grid results
caused a rerun of the query...

GL!

Rich -- [TeamT]

Disclaimer: Herman Melville had one righteous beard.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



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RE: Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

Flad Deborah M. (DSCYF)
I wanted Toad, mgmt wanted justification of cost. We had Allround Automations PL/SQL.  I did "experiment" to see how much of my work could get done with just Toad over a two week period then went back to using AA PL/SQL and I documented all sorts of stuff about one verses the other, good and bad.  My IT mgmt is usually willing to seriously consider a new product if it out performs whatever is currently in use.

One night I accidentally dropped all the MLogs in our prod database by clicking some wrong keys in AA, which basically shut down the prod database.  Lots of angry phone calls, emails, and an even longer night resulted.  I quickly fixed everything and admitted my error.

Few days later I was asked by purse keeper to demo "that Toad thing you want". Once I got her past the "ribit"(turns out she did have sense of humor but was not about to let me know that at the time) and walked thru a few things she asked "would the database outage earlier in the have happened if I had been using Toad?".  I said I didn't think so which lead to more questions and demos and explanations. And always in plain language (she demanded no tech speak!) and analogies.  Two of the things that won extra points was the great support I'd gotten from Quest even though I was only trailing the software and the strength of the Toad community in teaching and sharing. I'm in a very small shop so good support is important to us.

The next day I had approval to get the software and wasted no time getting the order in.

DM Flad, Delaware Childrens Dept, State of Delaware

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Donna Buskirk
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 15:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia



Anyone want to share their justification/proof presentation on the list?
We can call it "Best Practices for Educating CFOs/CIOs on Toad's Real Value."
:)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]<mailto:toad%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:toad%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Rich Jesse
Sent: October 18, 2012 12:51 PM
To: [hidden email]<mailto:toad%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [toad] Off Topic: TOAD becoming extinct in Australia

> I've worked for 3 of the major banking and investment companies in Australia
> now and they are all trying to remove TOAD from the workplace.

I like to put the costs (tangible or not) in terms that they can understand.
My Toad license costs 25% less than the service for the horrible PoS of a
Blackberry I was issued. So I gave 'em back my phone, went BYOD and saved
'em the costs. Not that I was in any danger of losing Toad, but...

Of course this situation is likely to be unique to me as I'm a DBA, I'm the
only DBA, I'm on-call 24x7x365, I was granted Special Dispensation for the
BYOD phone, and 95% of my cell minutes were talking to my (lovely) Wife
anyway. My point is that your Toad [groan, here it comes] ROI [hate that]
is going to vary between companies. Damagement wants proof, so prove it.
Make the case (I like using lots of pretty graphs and buzzwords) and present
it.

I know it sucks. It's like having to prove you're innocent instead of Them
having to prove your guilt, and that burns me.

I wonder if they've fixed the issue in S-Dev where saving grid results
caused a rerun of the query...

GL!

Rich -- [TeamT]

Disclaimer: Herman Melville had one righteous beard.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


________________________________

Confidentiality Notice - This electronic mail transmission and any attachment(s) are privileged and confidential and are intended only for the review of the party to whom it is addressed. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the unintended message received. Unintended transmission shall not constitute waiver of work product or any other privilege.